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#1
12-06-2004, 22:39
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Pros and Cons of Eugenics: The Story of the Eugenics Record Office (due Thu., Dec. 9)
From your exploration of the Cold Spring Harbor eugenics website, what have you learned about the case of Carrie Buck? About the efforts of the Eugenics Record Office in Cold Spring Harbor and associated efforts around the nation? About the dangers of eugenics?
What other intriguing tidbits did you discover on the site? And overall: what did you think of the material on this site? Note: this is a website created by the heirs to the site of this record office—today the DNA Laboratory (where Watson and Crick made their amazing discoveries) and more recently, the site of part of the Human Genome Project. In effect, they are “facing their own history.” Do they do it well? What’s troubling about that history?
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Ms. Freeman 
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#2
12-08-2004, 14:53
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It was really interesting finding out about where the Human Genome Project came from, and how something as troubling as eugenics evolved into this project to improve health.
The information on the site was pretty disturbing and was mostly, from what I saw, extreme cases. Vivan Buck's report was telling in how flawed their judgements of feeble-minded was. She was one grade removed from an Honor Roll report card. It seems ignorance about heredity was the cause of the development of this idea. Add that ignorance with discrimination and you have what happened to those in the US and, more infamously, the Holocaust. I think it is a good thing that they face their own history becuase people need to realize where this idea came from. Also, eugenics seems to be a hidden part of American history--I have never heard of it until this year. The site seems very thorough and cover as much about eugenics as they know about--it is museumesque. This info about eugenics is starting to tie into other material we have covered and probably lead into what Germany did with this concept.
__________________
The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who don't have it. - George Bernard Shaw
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#3
12-08-2004, 15:58
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Eugenics Archive Site
Taking a look at some of the material that this website contained, was entertaining, yet at the same time discouraging. My partner and I surfed through the various galleries and the reoccuring theme was this idea of the ideal human being. The biggest problem with the Eugenics project was what defines certain categories. It was clear from Buck's report card she was not feeble-minded. But beyond that the pictures of the ugliest women, midgets, giants, etc seem to serve no purpose other than ostricizing those who were't your "average acceptable" American. And the fact that the pictures were there for the afformentioned purpose made the whole thing silly. The men who ran this project did not utilize the right means of research or evaluation, it was a poorly done job, and now that we look back on it nothing good has come from it.
Not to sound harsh, but the idea of Eugenics isnt an awful idea. If there was a safe way that was performed after mutual agreement among doctors and care takers then Eugenics might have worked out. If they were able to creat a better evaluation where they could screen out those who were clearly ill and had no sense of what reproduction is, than it might not be a horrible idea. The fact is, they blew it. They create these absurd standards and came up with foolish results. To me Eugenics was like a beauty pagent except the losers fac sterilization. It is a wonder that this movement was not fiercly protested by those who witnessed it. After all was said and done there was no useful empirical data that came from Eugenics. What does the fact that the Smith family won a smart contest in louissianna. What does it matter if the Eugenics comes up with an irrational portrait of what a scientist might look like, or the statue of an Average American? How do those things better society...they don't the way Eugenics was run was a disaster. It does'nt better the country all it does is place these awful stareotpyes that are complete fallicies. Eugenics was an controversial idea that might have produce something worth while, gone completley wrong. It was terrible our country had to adhere to this. It is evidence that science methods used during that time period (atleast in that field) were completely used in the wrong way and did not provide anything useful. The best thing to do from this point is realize our mistakes and never let the absurdity of Eugenics which supports causes like Nazism, ever rise again. Last edited by FHAO1286; 12-08-2004 at 16:02.
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#4
12-08-2004, 17:53
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Chappy Chanukkah night number two, peeps! Alright, on to Eugenics.
There was no written evidence on the site that Carrie Buck was feebleminded! Her report was decent! She had a few Cs, but mostly As and Bs! It seemed like the Cs were only in math, so I feel her pain! If we deemed C average math students mentally handicapped, I would have been sterilized long ago! But honestly, the effort to study and experiment with eugenics is astounding. People put so much effort into making these complex family trees, which I bet took a lot of research. They went through all of these examinations, like of twins to get some sort of statistical evidence. Granted they tweaked this “evidence” to support their take on the issues, they still were really serious about it! I think a lot of scientists really believed in eugenics. I can see how making immigrants take impossible tests is just ploy to ease up on immigration and in fact really unjust, but the actually study of eugenics seemed to have been quite real and upheld with lots of support. Obviously today, the arguments fall short. However, although the pictures were entertaining, they are just a cause for prejudice, as FHAO1286 spoke about. The ways people look really have no basis in their intelligence. This is a gross misjudgment. We are a more enlightened generation, with truthful (or maybe NOT!) science to back up why things happen i.e. mental retardation, and from this we can get statistics on if children of these people will be like their parents. Clearly eugenics creates problems. If people begin to believe that certain races are incapable or inferior, they’re gonna pick on them! This thought exploded in Nazi Germany, spurring on the Holocaust. Some other interesting things: we found a family tree that had a bunch of so-called sex perverts, and all of their children were illegitimate. Most of these sex perverts were women, so we were thinking maybe they just had children out of wedlock and that made them crazy sex pervs! The 1950s way of thinking was definitely present in this labeling of the family tree! It was also interesting to note that whatever race of an intermarried couple was the “bad” one was also the dominant race. We were exploring the interracial marriage section, and all of the white women, let’s say, who married black men, had very black looking children. This is such a scare tactic, trying to frighten people, hinting at the idea that their children would be teased for looking so black but having a white mother. Overall, I think it’s neat that Cold Spring Harbor is the home of the Human Genome Project. Indeed, I believe they not only faced their history but are trying to make up for it. They put it in plain view of the public how ridiculous these studies were, thus hinting at the awful consequences of the results. Now they’re helping to cure diseases. All in all, the study of eugenics only yielded false beliefs…nothing more.
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#5
12-08-2004, 18:07
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Before I begin, I would like to take a moment to say that Macs suck. The right click button is essential, and they know it. As a man wiser than myself explained to me, the reason they don’t get viruses is not because they are better protected, but because they make up less than 5% of the market, and no one wants to make a virus that won’t effect 95% of computer users.
Anyway, eugenics… One thing we learned from the site is that “feeble minded” people don’t necessarily produce feeble minded children. Carrie Buck’s daughter seemed to have her stuff together enough to be a decent student. We also learned the depth of the creepiness of eugenicist. I never thought that having albinism or a twin made you “deficient”. I saw a lot of interesting stuff on this website; my favorite section was the circus performers. I don’t know what exactly is so fascinating about “circus freaks”, but they are impossible not to look at. I think the world’s ugliest woman isn’t that bad looking if you think she’s a man. She looks a little like Spencer Tracey. Overall I thought the material on the website was pretty interesting/informative. There were a few photos that were tremendously fake. I guess people back then weren’t good at spotting doctored pictures. I think those DNA researchers did a great job of facing their history, and this is a very important part of American history which is often overlooked. It’s a good reminder of the importance of making sure that the science practiced is “sound science” as Mr. Izzo might say. He might also say “I have a friend who did that. You know what happened to him? He died.”
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#6
12-08-2004, 18:45
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No need to repeat the findings of Vivian’s evidence of a “strong”-minded person. In fact I was pretty shock to learn from the video that Carrie was raped and then as the victim, punished for this crime and labeled as feeble-minded. Poor Vivian, whose first day was already labeled inadequate because of her family record of two generations of feeble-mindedness. She also died at age only eight of some illness.
Other interesting tidbits: There are lots! Despite the fact, they are labeled “defective”, I find it very interesting to look at people with unique qualities. If everyone was the same, it would be boring to look at people. The ones with the so called defects or really just genetically different create diversity. Albino African Americans, very tall and very short people. Women with beards. Half-lions and half man. Scaly skin of an allegation or elephant, although this is a trait which would be hard to live to with. Don’t get me wrong, I feel bad that many may have to live a harsher life dealing with these impairments. However others such as albinos or have great heights, it is fascinating what genetics can do to a person. I am not advocating for more down syndrome or other diseases but eugenics have ruled out even simple and harmless traits as feeble-mindedness that soon enough our population may not only look alike, but think alike, dress alike, and talk alike. Eugenics can create one big group of human production of efficient robots. It can also murder people deserving to live and rewarding those, who should be punished. The content of this site is awesome. The information is detailed and very through. It even explains how eugenics failed to be a conclusive research because qualities and traits cannot be simply defined or treated as a single entity. Eugenics was created so that another person can point a finger at someone else. The people did not want to pay for extra expenses a genetically impaired person or a criminal may bring or have another person in the native’s way of success. They used it to restrict immigration who would compete in the labor pool and be costly, if some become homeless. Nazis used it to point fingers too, mainly the Jews. Quote:
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#7
12-08-2004, 19:26
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eugenics
Seriously..... did this not feel like a joke website?! I can not believe some of the things on that website. Like the feeble minded flashcards... as if you could study a picture of a so called "feeble minded" person, and automatically be able to spot one walking down the street. Also things about the midgets, albinos, and twins were all ridiculously crap. (for lack of better words) But seriously if any person who WASNT feeble minded read those they would know that it was a load of crap. Personally I think the creator of the whole eugenics studies and the sterilization laws were at very least feeble-minded. But I think the whole eugenics thing goes back to the whole thought of being afraid of different things, and the easiest way to deal with these fears was to deem them as inferior. Then to sterilize them to keep the numbers of the "different" people at a lowere number than the "normal" people.
The whole Carrie Buck situation was ridiculous. Um if all a's, b's, c's, and one d is considered feeble minded then I would have been deemed an imense IDIOT, no lie. And if you think about it, it's kind of scary that a student at BLS ( like a totally smart school) could have been deemed feeble minded, then who were these"normal people" That's the real question about all this eugenics crap. Throughout history the "superior" people have tried to get rid of the "not so good" people. This was true in the Holocaust, with the Nazi's and the Jews, it's also happened with the Turks and Armenians in Turkey, in Rawanda, and with the Hutu's and the Tutsi's, and so on and so on. Eugenics only helps split people up even more than they already are, and indirectly lead to things as severe as genocides. Sterilizing people can , I think, be looked at as a form of a genocide, while it wasn't rying to wipe out a whole race or religion, it certainly was trying to wipe out a whole group of people because of their alleged "feeble-mindedness." And I think that fact should be a little bit more recognized than it is.
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#8
12-08-2004, 19:31
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Carrie Buck...crazy or not?
It is scary to think that one of the premier men of the 2Oth century, Oliver Wendell Holmes, believed that three generation of feeblemindedness was enough to warrant sterilization. Holmes was descended from two great Brahmin families, its no wonder he placed a lot of stock in "stock". Poor Carrie Buck, and her daughter, who were literaly in the wrong place at the wrong time. It is frightening to see that Vivian could have been labled feebleminded based solely on her "pedigree".
Interseting tidbits...TOSTITOS mentioned many of mine. My partner and I looked closely at on of the family trees, which included a fair share of physchopaths, female sex pervs, and alchoholics and feebleminded. Sadly, it was kind of fun to trace what happened when an phsychotic man and alcoholic women married...somehow this would produce a "feebleminded". It is also interesting to note that Indian + white= Indian...its starnge that, since eugenisitss would argue that white is superior that white wouldn't over power the "worse" race. Its funny how "science"works some times. A lot of the picures seemed to be newspaper clippings, like the Eugenisists would sit around cutting out cases of abnormality from the newspaper. Also, it must be noted that my competetive spirit enjoys the idea of a fitter family...just for the competition (as faulty as it may be). I wish we could have a eugenesist come in and evaluate us (just for kicks guys, not because I believe its a good idea). The Human Genome Proj. is absolutely right to face their facts, they have literally iherited the legacy of eugenics. There are some elements of eugenics that are appealing (especially to those who believe they are superior). We've all heard about people purposely chosing to have girls or boys (or aborting girls)...its not hard to imagine picking eye color soon too. Infact, that's what you'd do if you used a sperm donor no? Its important to face the past to better understand the developments of the present.
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#9
12-08-2004, 19:56
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I have learned about Carrie Buck that in no way was she a feebleminded person. She was a good student. And also she was deemed feebleminded for having a baby...when she had been raped! (I will never seize to become infuriated by people shunning a woman because she has been raped! It's so stupid!)
A lot of these records seemed like they were being taken not so much with the intent of testing a hypothesis but with the intent of PROVING the hypothesis by all means necessary. Which is in itself a flawed way of going about science. Eugenics is a dangerous science because of its seeming arbitrariness. Basically just about anyone (except those performing experiments. of course they were VERY fit!) could be deemed unfit and sterilized. I was really surprised at one part of the site when they showed the fittest couple of some contest and one of the people was balding and wearing glasses! Shouldn't impaired eye sight be deemed unfit? And the receding hair line! No one way in hell is that fit! Who really wants baldness to become a dominant trait in society! The circus folk pictures were interesting because in a lot of cases it was like they just took flyers from the show and used those as official photos of the people. Even if they looked pretty clearly like drawings. I found the overall content of this site very interesting (even if it is a little hard to navigate through) I think it is very important that the human genome project not just be aware of its history but also let people know about this history. In many ways this was probably not just about "Hey let's be educational and let people know about eugenics" but also about "Gee let's try to calm some people down about us and show them that we know how this science can be corrupted and show them that we are consciously not following that route" ps. Macs are horrible things...and ball mouses!
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"Stalin would be proud"-Winston84 First member of the Winston84 fan club
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#10
12-08-2004, 20:05
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From looking at all of this, I think that I've come to this conclusion:
He who makes the rules can break them. It just amused me in a way that Gaultin, i think that was his name, the man who started eugenics in England had so much information on himself in the their records. I know it could be seen maybe as him just showing "See, this is what a person is like," but I thought of it more as a guilty conscience thing i guess, that he had some fear or need to prove to people that he was indeed fit; that he did fit into what he was saying, and not as being on the feeble-minded end. Anyway, on to Carrie Buck: She did not seem feeble-minded. She had pretty good grades-though i'm not sure how she got the honor in a couple of places, but anyway, her grades seemed to prove fairly well that she was not feeble-minded. I did wonder though, seeing the other people in that gradebook, was Carrie the only one in that school that was deemed feeble-minded? The pictures were interesting. Especially the Leona person. Was that some kind of trick of the camera? A double-exposure or something? Otherwise it's amazign that she was that small. Though they were degrading, they had the "bear sisters" in a cage, they had some of them photographed with hardly any clothes to show off what made people see them as freaks. I think that it's good the this project was done; that this information was unearthed. The site could have been done a little better, the picturte thing did get a bit annoying. I think thtey did it fairly well. Gattacca is definitely a lurking scenario though. The worring thing is that people probabably supported the eugenic research with good intentions and turned bad with time. The Human Genome Project also started with and is fueled in part probably with similar good intentions. We need to look back at this information and not let this research take the same turn the eugenic research did.
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#11
12-08-2004, 20:11
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The case of Carrie Buck is a sad one indeed. I do not think that it is really necessary for me to rename everything that everyone who has posted has already stated in their posts. Vivian was a victim of circumstance...although this happened during a period where science wasn't exactly at it's best, one would think that before deeming someone "feebleminded" they would at least try and justify it...I mean, afterall, it was all for the good of "science"...right?
Eugenics poses a threat to those who aren't "normal" though I would like to see the picture of a "normal" person, or at least the definition of one. I bet that definition is more or less like the one we found on "race". The Eugenics Record Office collected a lot of information, unfortunately, they failed to act morally and ethically right in their attempts to advance science and make the world a better place. The website provided a lot of insight as to the types of people that were targeted, merely because of their looks. I'm sure we all got a kick out of looking at the pictures and the articles and reading them, but when you think about it, it's really sad that all of these people were deemed "feebleminded" but in reality they could have easily been put in a Vivian Buck situation. I believe that very few of those people actually should have been there for what they were being labled as, though no one should have been put through the eugenics testing anyway. The material was really informative, it allowed us to see exactly what was going on in the minds of these scientists. Unfortunately, I don't believe in a word of it because it was both unethical and immoral. Those who created this site definately did a good job of facing their history. Although the thought of eugenics is really something I can't stand, (and this may be the troubling part about it as well as the good part) is that it was the eugenics project that launched the DNA Laboratory where the double helix was found, and it was that same office where the Human Genome Project was stationed. If it hadn't been for the existance of this project, the technical advances we are making today may not have even been possible. But are we really advancing? Or has the cycle of history repeating itself begun again?
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#12
12-08-2004, 20:11
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The website today was very informative although not as interactive as I expected it to be. I learned a lot more about Eugenics from this site just by seeing the pictures and documents of these real life people and what they went through. Eugenics was a big movement in our nation, not a small scale attempt by backwards people who live in places that we’ve never heard of but big name hot shots in major cities were preaching this message of creating a pure race.
Carrie Buck wasn't feebleminded just by looking at her report card. yes she did get a D but in math and who's good in math anyways?!?!?! Because her mother was in an asylum doesn't mean that she has been given the crazy genes. One part that was very interesting to me that was in the video was the fact that they classified Vivian, carrie's daughter as feeblemindd as well after just 6 months of age. Her neighbor or family friend said that the child acted weird. What is weird at 6months? too much poop or too much crying? How can you determine that a baby is feebleminded especially because they cannot talk and express their ideas. i just shows us how stupid the eugenics movement was but yet so many people beileved in it. Eugenics was a bad thing overall because no one should be forced to give up their reproductive abilities based on another person’s assessment on them. We all know that the tests were difficult if not impossible seeing as most if not all of us didn’t complete or left many blank. IQ tests were a big thing back then but know we just joke around with them ( hahaha let me compare my IQ to that of Einstein’s) but these tests we determining factors to if someone was sterilized and shipped of to Lynchburg or not. I think the people justified the Eugenics movement as something that would create a better world. We all saw the pictures or people who had “elephant” skin or excessive facial hair and we put into circuses and treated as a freak show. It is hard living with something like that because you are mocked and ridiculed and part of me thinks that these people did eugenics to prevent this ridicule and persecution but maybe I’m just a bit soft-hearted. Who knows if they tried to do this so that people wouldn’t have to face the torture of being teased and felt eugenics would clear the population of such diseases and traits and everyone would be “normal” and live the Pleasantville life. I don’t think eugenic will ever happen again in our country at least just because today we know better. Eugenics is a tough thing to face because any of us could have been classified as feebleminded and sterilized the way these people were. Last edited by Greenbean21; 12-08-2004 at 20:15.
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#13
12-08-2004, 20:20
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From reading the Cold Spring Harbor eugenics website I learned that the case of Carrie Buck was a big waste of time. Carrie’s life was ruined just because she had an illegitimate child and she was labeled “unfit”. Carrie’s daughter Vivian turned out to be a very good student according to the i1232 document on the website. Her academic performance contradicts the decisions about Carrie’s reproductive abilities because her daughter turned out to be the exact opposite of what she was “supposed” to come out as. The loss of the trial on Buck’s behalf at the Supreme Court shows how influential eugenics really was. Eugenicists tricked people into believing what they were doing was right by having contests and deeply embedding people with their ideas in very smart and sophisticated ways.
I found dozens of tidbits on the site. For example, I also didn’t know that twins weren’t accepted by the eugenicists. I also read through the circus documents, which shocked me too. It’s very clear that circus shows in the past have nothing to do with present circus shows. It’s amazing how these people with birth defects and disabilities were put on display for the sake of entertainment. I would have been disgusted with myself if I went to a show like that knowing that the entertainers were being humiliated in that fashion. Overall I found the material on the website to be overwhelming. The detail and the amount of information that is documented about eugenic studies are astounding. The material was sad, disturbing, and troubling because the Eugenicists spent so much time of their lives destroying other lives unknowingly. Reading through the material in Option A, I found the reasons of eugenics absurd: recovering from war, bad economy, etc. Why is it that money is always used to blame for problems and why is it a good enough excuse to take away human rights? It’s ridiculous that Eugenicists blamed specific people for the country’s problems instead of blaming society as a whole. The efforts of the Eugenics Office is amazing because they really feel that it is important to tell the world of the atrocities that happened to innocent people. Quote:
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#14
12-08-2004, 20:28
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Quote:
Anyway, as just about everyone has said, Carrie Buck was a pretty good student...besides that D in math. But I hardly think one D in any subject is grounds for sterilization...otherwise there wouldn't be a lot of reproduction going on. The Cold Spring Harbor eugenecists were pretty creepy in how much they documented. With the archives there were thousands of images of pictures, diagrams, pedigrees. There didn't seem to be one centralized theory...it was just whoever people wanted to persecute, throw 'em on there. Scariest of all was that it gained momentum in many places and eventually moved over to merry old Germany, where a guy named Hitler used these practices to the absolute extreme. While perusing the site I happened upon a very intriguing image. This image was that of a multi-storied brick building, with robbers climbing out of each window. On the top story was a Polish guy. These were the worst of robbers, the ones willing to climb the highest. Also starring in this little chain of larceny was an Irish thief (complete with a liquor bottle) and an Italian guy, the least worst of all these. He was not in a window, but instead on the street, simply picking up a coin he had found. The "ugliest" woman in the world may have been pretty ugly...but come on! How can you determine who the ugliest woman in the world is? That's just ridiculous. Whoever made those four kids with her obviously didn't think she was too bad. I have to say...a lot of this was pretty funny to me while I was reading it. It was funny because it was such a stupid idea - it's so unbelievable that people could possibly have some secret vendetta against bearded ladies and want them all gone. But it's less funny when you realize that people were actually sterelized because of this crap. Also...I think those guys should seek some help on their website. The format sucked almost as much as macs.
__________________
It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man. Last edited by Supremo; 12-08-2004 at 20:31.
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#15
12-08-2004, 20:42
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Pros - Cons
What I learned about Carrie Buck is that anyone with A's, B's, C's, and one D is considered "feebleminded." Not sure how she made the honor roll, but she definatly doesn't deserve the title she was given. Yes her mother was "crazy" but that wouldn't necessarily make her feebleminded as well.
I must admit this sight was very interesting and very weird at the same time. It was a really smart idea for the DNA Laboratory at Cold Springs Harbor to "face their history." It shows what exactly was hidden in their basement. It shows people how they might have been labeled if Eugenics was still around today. This website shows how horrible people can be to take the human right to reproduce away from them. I felt extremly bad for "The Ugliest Woman In The World." That is horrible. She reproduced and her children didn't seem ugly. So what makes Eugenicists believe that a feebleminded parent will necessarily make a feebleminded child. Who gives anyone the right to take away someones capability to have children. Like SpeedyGonzo1810 said, I would also like to see a picture of a "normal" person. It would be very interesting to see what they would look like. Some of these people were so different it was hard to believe they actually existed. Like the extremly small woman who was standing on the table. I have never heard of someone the size of a 20oz. coke bottle, but who knows for sure? And the lady with the elephant skin? Craziness . . . but then again I guess that was the point of Eugenics, to expose these different people or "circus freaks" to the world and have them discontinue to exist. I'm surprised Eugenics didn't go as far as killing these people instead of performing the surgeries on them.
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#16
12-08-2004, 20:59
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Quote:
Greenbean articulates, and rightly so, that the people who began the Eugenics movement in America as in other countries across the globe believed that they weremaking an ethically justified crusade against people they deemed feebleminded. In fact, part of the reason that this outrageous movement could continue for such a long time in the first place was because "popular opinion" was with them as well, (not to mention government hanky-pankying). Public opinion is important in and of itself because since the beginning of it's official creation around the Enlightenment, it has determined the rights of various groups of people (African Americans. Women, Gays, etc.). For example not until the sixties and the Civil Rights movement could Black People have the right to basic civil rights and liberties because of leaders like Malcolm X and Dr. Martin Luther King who brought the issue into public light. Therefore Eugenics at that time was a perfectly valid answer to social issues, considering the times and popular opinion. It is actually suprising that certain leaders in the eugenics movement did not do more to their targeted groups, considering the amount supported they had from both the government and regular people. Do we know better, not to discriminate against disabled or else differently looking people such as we saw at the website? I heard many of us incredulously saying that the "ugliest woman in the world" was married. Would any of us marry one of the midgets or tall men or women? Seems like we've sterilized them without using a needle... Quote:
Quote:
(more to post later) - to Greenbean21- Is sterilizing a person or killing them equivalent to how they might feel if they were teased? 
Last edited by redolmadeslo; 12-08-2004 at 21:07.
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#17
12-08-2004, 21:01
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Freaks and Geeks
The Eugenics Archive was very very interesting. So basicly what I learned is the science behind Eugenics- as Dr. Frankenstein said in Mel Brook's Frankenstein, " My Granfather's work was DOODOO!" It seems that the Human Genome progect in making this website is saying the same thing Gene Wilder hilariously cried in the awesome movie.
So while Gene Wilder's Dr. Frank- en- stine ( see the movie if you don't get the joke) wished to distance himself from his grandfather's work trying to bring the dead back to life, the Human Genome is trying to distance itslef form their silly forebearers. As Ms. Freeman said- they come under a lot of fire today anyway- the last thing they need is having their name inexorably linked with a racist, xenophobic, intolernant pseudo science. So fidling around on the website- I spent alot of time looking at Albinos- because they are cool- having white skin and hair in my opinion is really intriguing and pretty- not freaky- or worthy of sterilization. I also looked at the really tall- giant people- I saw a show on giants once- being tall runs in the family- but not being a giant- uncontrolled growth is actually a disease that has to do with the growth hormone never shutting off- Giants don't begat more giants. Lots of things don't necesarilly run in families- as seen with Carrie Bucks' poor little daughter Vivian- who managed to do just fine in school- even though she was deemed by most to be " feeble minded". I was dismayed to hear and see that twins were seen as freaks. Technically two at once is more efficient!!! I saw the ugliest women in the world- she wasn't sooo horrible- she just kind of looked like a lump of clay that never was finifshed sculpting. her kids were pretty cute though. The Better Babies competitions were fascinating- cute kids- but what did they judge them on? How soon they could walk- how chubby they are? It's all very creepy. The most interesting thing is tumbled upon were the composites- they mushed characteristics of " criminal" men all together- and showed on a flashcard what a criminal man would look like. I can't imagine walking around and saying- " Sorry I can't date you but you have a criminal nose". While this site was weirdly constructed I think it served it's purpose of showing the ridiculousness of Eugenics at practiced in America. It's jsut very scary (Milgrem experiment scary) to think tons of people baught into this. But then again they were told it was " science". How was a common Joe Schmoe to discern any better? But then again anyone who did not buy into the science of eugenics- could easily have been labeled " Feeble minded" - and oh-oh- no babies for them! I leave you know because I must study all the people that started this whole mess- blame Copernicus and Newton- with their scientific revolution- if it wasn't for them- we'd still be blissfully ignorant thinking the sun revolved around the earth. Pick your evil- Sun revolving around the earth or Sterilization of the feeble minded.... hmmmm....
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#18
12-08-2004, 21:02
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I was absolutely amazed at this site today - though my partner and I had some trouble with navigation (could be due to the fact that we're both mortal enemies of Macs). This variety of information - though very grotesque and disturbing information - could not possibly have been taught or shown to us. When we first studied the topic or "pseudo-science" of Eugenics, I was convinced that the scientists and college professors who engaged in it were absolutely sure that they knew what they were doing. Through this site, it was interesting to see that there was a lot of hesitation, especially when scientists had to measure unmeasureable aspects of human nature, such as "courage" for example. There is enough evidence to indicate that they learned that life is not a controlled experiment. Besides seeing the awful pictures of the freaks galleries and the ludicrous effects of miscegenation (doesn't miscegenation lead to less cases of "freakish" traits - ie genetically linked disease?), I was able to connect immigration, racial profiling, racial discrimination and stereotyping with eugenics. It is odd that I had thought of each as separate subjects, especially when I learned the litany of facts during American History AP last year. Overall, I this is an extremely interesting website.
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#19
12-08-2004, 22:03
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Before I get into my post I would like to say that this post is being written on a unix based system which isn't so insecure with itself that it needs an extra mouse button.^_^
That out of the way, I was pretty amazed (and disgusted) at some of the stuff on the website we viewed today. My partner and I glanced at the circus performers' section like many in the class. I just had to see the ugliest woman. We also went through some other images of twins and albinos. It is interesting to me that they saw twins as inferior. Triplets were a freak of nature. Looking at Carrie Buck, yes, her report did not seem to portray her as feeble-minded, but I doubt it was her report card that was the problem. If I read correctly she was seen as a bad woman because she was raped. It was her sexual prmoiscuity taht was being stopped. Her lack of morals would not be passed on. Being raped is sure having a lack of morals. I do want to also bring in what FHAO1286 said. I really do not see any instance where sterilization is just when the person is unaware of it. I do not see Eugenics as having an upside. As long as humans try to create the ideal person, there will be no upside to these studies. What is ideal? It is different for everyone. The current group in power will create that image, and then we are back to the dark ages...or to Brave New World . It is always a scary thought. Where could this have gone if it caught on? Can it still catch on? I hope people are not as feeble minded as the creators of this pseudo-science.
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#20
12-08-2004, 22:26
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The Carrie Buck story is kind of scary. The woman was set up, her lawyer was against her along with everyone else in the courtroom; from the minute she walked in there she was already guilty. It is scary to think we live in a society that would do that to people. And why was she feebleminded? For being "promiscuous". She was raped! But I guess the court decided to overlook that tiny detail in the case. There were no other reasons to prove that Carrie was an "imbecile". Even on her report card her final grades were all B's and an A. Do you have to get all A's to be in the elite club of eugenics? The eugenics movement was terrible for the fact that it pointed out someone’s tiniest flaw and made them an outcast for that. The website was very disturbing. If the eugenics movement had any credibility, they lost it all because of this website. Seriously, to point out some poor woman for being the ugliest woman in the world is a pretty terrible thing to do. She must have felt horrible, and what if her kids found out; they would probably be embarrassed of their mother. So now being ugly is added to the list of reason’s why someone is feebleminded. How does physical appearance affect the ability of someone to think? The whole idea of eugenics is based on a theory that just doesn’t work. The content of the site was fascinating. It displayed everything the eugenics movement promoted and the kind of people it deemed feebleminded. I guess this website also gives us a good view of the history of eugenics, and hopefully this history doesn’t repeat itself; but then again, it often does.
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