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#41
11-09-2004, 19:19
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To Other Boards (disregard if you wish)
Oh, on some of the other boards I've seen questions about the questionnaire so I looked it up and found its background. Basically all of the questions on it are of the type that are commonly asked of homosexuals. the 'Is it possible that all you need is a good gay lover?' is a joke commonly bandied about about lesbians just needing one good %&#@
Secretme12, before I hit my head against the table I'm going to tell you that its bad to buy into stereotypes and media represntations of gay men. Popsicle616, I can totally relate to your first hearing of the usage of the word 'gay' being in relation to Tinky Winky. In General: Yes, lesbians are generally less recognized in the mainstream than gay men. Personally if you find yourself apologizing for the way you were raised, I think you just have a problem with either what you're saying and with backing it up. I find it interesting that it seems to be what a lot of people do first.
__________________
'In the end, all the world lies in darkness..'
'..and that is why WE will continue to seek the light.' 
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#42
11-09-2004, 19:20
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I CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH: THIS IS JUST NOT TRUE! If you are going to try to make a case for discrimination, at least know what you are talking about. I challenge you to find one person who grew up with homosexual parents and agrees with you about that. I'm not going to write a big long post explaining in detail why you are wrong, I've had a nice day and I don't want to get any more angry. Winston84 already gave a very nice response, and thanks Winston84 for posting on HomerJaySimpsons post so we can all see how wrong (s)he is. Last edited by KidWatchEM; 11-09-2004 at 19:22.
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#44
11-09-2004, 19:27
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Oh I'd missed HomerJaySimpson's post, thanks for pointing it out KidwatchEM but the giant font size nearly gave me a heart attack. I'd like to challenge HomerJaySimpson to explain the major scarring differences in a home with two homosexuals and two heterosexuals.
Online check gives me that there have been many different studies one on the differences between children raised in the different homes, and the majr two have been that the children are more likely to have been discriminated against (societies fault) and more likely to be open to bisexuality. milliways: I hadn't really thought about it that way, so you may be right, but I still think its a bad way to get your view across. Its something I see a lot in debate where often times people really CAN'T back up their gut feeling and know that they don't have much ground to stand on but hold it forward as the absolute only truth anyway.
__________________
'In the end, all the world lies in darkness..'
'..and that is why WE will continue to seek the light.' Last edited by DragonSinger; 11-09-2004 at 19:31.
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#45
11-09-2004, 19:31
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Sorry to make two seperate posts
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#46
11-09-2004, 19:36
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To Dragonsinger:
It might be what gives them even a tiny bit of ground to still stand on, at least until it becomes ore excepted, though yes, it doesn't exactly help that happen either...
But like how we saw with the questionnaire the other, if you posed those questions to someone who was either hetero- or homosexual, neither would be really able to give any really good response to the questions they'd probably be bombarded with in those types of debates. I think I made a point, right? If i didn't, I think this is what I meant: if I was being pushed against a wall, say in a debate, with no other option but that, I would probably do the same thing. Last edited by milliways; 11-09-2004 at 19:46.
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#47
11-09-2004, 19:48
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"Dude, your so gay!"
"Get outta here you f***in' fi-aggot" I don't know what is with all this anti-homosexuality and homophobia, but I know I have been called gay or a fag for a long long time. It is not because I am gay right now, but just to be mean. It used to bother me back when I was younger, but now it bothers me because it is bigotted. It is biggotry that is accepted in society. I was shocked that in one of the posts it was mentioned that a teacher even used it. A Teacher!?! What does that teach young people. Gay Marriage should be compared tot he fight for civil rights. Not allowing love to be recognized by one's home is terrible, whether the law prohibits interacial marriages or same sex marriages. I completely think HomerJaySimpson is wrong. If a child is raised in a house wher elove is present then thats enough, whether his parents are of the same sex or not. I am not sure where these anti-homosexuals feelings come from. I am not sure if it is fear as much as it is that people must always look down on someone different.
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#48
11-09-2004, 20:01
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To milliways:
I thiink that I see your point, somethings you just don't think you can explain because you really just can't. To Turangalia: Thank you for bringing up the civil rights comparison debate. I also think that its very similar, but something interesting that I've noted is that the indignate black civil leaders also seem to be behaving in the 'pull up the ladder behind them' way we discussed in class pertaining to the slow acceptance of groups of immigrants. Generally you get a refusal to consider that they could be anywhere near the same. Some say that it demeans what black people went through because gay people apparently haven't suffered anywhere near enough, which is something I've seen elsewhere just in the community. Today I was told that even though I had plenty of minority friends I needed more of ones specifically of my race because no other group seems to face discrimination. Others say that you can't hide skin color and you can hide sexuality, though I have to wonder if you can even decide which is worse, being discriminated against for something everyone can see and you can't change, or for something you can't change but have the option of spending every second of your life miserably unhappy hiding the fact.
__________________
'In the end, all the world lies in darkness..'
'..and that is why WE will continue to seek the light.'
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#49
11-09-2004, 20:02
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God, I wish I hadn't gotten into this so late…
Virtually all of the most important things to be said about this issue have already been said, and I don't want to reiterate them. People generally seem to be able to agree on the idea that being an anti-homosexual implies hate and being a homophobe implies fear, even though each can (and often does) cause the other.
I think Joebob8's point that religion contributes substantially to discrimination against homosexuals is valid, inasmuch as religion is one of many ways in which people in our society today are struggling to cope with all of the change going on around us. And, that said, Quote:
Quote:
As I see it, accepting homosexuality is a modern issue that is long overdue. But why has it been left for so long? I hold that it's a result of the fear — amplified of late — that so many heterosexual men, the controllers of society prior to 1920, have with the idea of effeminacy. Because of the number of these active and passive taboos in place that have only begun to be removed with the advent of women's lib, anti-homosexuality exists for the same reasons that misogynism exists, without the clear scientific proof that homosexuality is not a 'choice'. Which brings me to the topic of gay marriage. I'm not an apologist for those who believe in the 'sanctity of marriage' — in fact, I believe in it too, regardless of gender. It's the 'marriage' in gay marriage as much as it is the 'gay' ('gay' referring principally to men) that ruffles so many feathers, and the reasons anti-homosexuals have for feeling that way, if extremely shortsighted, are at least understandable. The role of marriage in American society is one of the last vestiges of the time when separation of church and state meant that all Christians could worship where they pleased — but they still, from a societal point of view, had to be worshipping Christians. It's true that 'separate but equal' doesn't work, and it's only because the probability of abolishing marriages and replacing them with civil unions is slim to nil in light of the number of gay-haters that gay marriage is the only solution. The point I'm trying to make is that this is a unique issue that requires understanding on both sides to resolve in favor of homosexuals, and trying to snipe at the religious and historical bases for the arguments of anti-homosexuals is all but impossible. The survival of gay marriage in Massachusetts thus far allows homosexuals a testing ground — one they shouldn't have to have, but life is harsh that way — for adoption and committment. Society needs time to overcome generations of taboos before anti-homosexuality will disappear.
__________________
If you were on a bus full of gay guys, would you get off? The homophobe's dilemma.
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#50
11-09-2004, 21:12
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I beleive the reason why people for things like "that's gay" are because they are ignorant. Plain and simple. It's not bad it's more sad. they don't know the pain they cause when they say that. They don't know the boundries they set up when they say those comments. It goes back to those people who in the old days used to say the n'word cuz it was apart of the lingo. These ideas of hate are spread like wildfire because people put those ideas out there and there arent enuff people saying otherwise which shuld change. I think all we need is time and people teaching others the right thing instead of letting hate just run through society freely.
Im not sure if there is a difference between being anti homosexual or homophobic. I think being homophobic means u just hate homosexuals. Being anti - homosexual isjust being against the act not the person.
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#51
11-09-2004, 21:28
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What are you, scared?
The issue of discrimination against homosexuals has always upset and angered me. It just doesn't make sense to me. Of course, I am not ignorant of the reasons that people hide behind, I just simply find them weak and groundless. It is true that homophobia or anti-homosexuality is the last major form of blatent discrimination in the country. I have to hold the hope that one day we will be able to move past it, just as we have made leaps and bounds forward in terms of other types of discrimination. Of course, it is impossible to wipe out the discrimination completely. That's like saying we can win a war against terror! However, I do believe that at some point we will progress to the point where it is no longer socially acceptable to hold this form of hatred.
There is apparently a prevalent sense of fundamentalism and conservatism in terms of "moral values" (yeah, that hot topic now) in America. I do not necessarily want to assume that it all stems from religious beliefs. I know many many people who oppose homosexuality and who are not in the least bit religious. So, that's not the problem. It is one problem, but not the source. I'm not sure that there is one source of this hatred and discrimination. My theory is that this type of discrimination is different from other types because the majority of the people who hold these views believe that homosexuality is simply a choice, opening up the possibility of a right choice, a wrong choice, and the ability to be converted. I doubt anyone was afraid of being turned Black or turned Irish by coming in contact with these groups. Homosexuality is often seen as a disorder, a disease, not just an inate inferiority. Until it is proven that homosexuality is not a conscious decision that gay people make, then it is so much more difficult to stem this hatred and discrimination. I am nervous, as I see the rising sense of social conservatism and religious fundamentalism in America. I truly hope that we are not regressing, in terms of tolerance and acceptance.
__________________
Thinking is the hardest work there is. That is why so few people engage in it. --Henry Ford (...and now the irony is clear)
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#52
11-09-2004, 22:53
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homophobia
people can be so openly homophobic because they're bigoted. homophobia is when you're actually afraid of gay people and what they may be capable of as a community, but anti-homosexual is when you just do not agree with their lifestyle, but do not fear they will take over the world and turn it into a gay empire of some kind.
"i don't want my kids growing up next door to them" - or something to that effect by the politician. that's disgusting. a kid is a kid, and most kids are not going to care about the sexual orientation of another kid's parents unless their own parents make a point of singling them out. i've never thought that being gay was out of the norm, because my house is surrounded by those of gay couples, most of which have always been friendly to me and my family, and so i never saw them as being so different from my family. if anything, my family is more dysfunctional than theirs. i am for civil unions, but i'd really like to see gay couples receive the right to be married all across america - a lofty dream i know....and my religion plays no role in my opinions on this, because i'm roman catholic, and i know the church is opposed to it, but that means nothing to me. And honestly, when someone quoted the Bible in their post, i thought that that quote must be wrong, or it must just be that way in the king james version, so i went and got my bible and found the same thing. however, one of the main points stressed in the bible is that god loves all his children, and he created gay children just as he did straight ones, so all the religious people don't really have anything but their own beleifs to back them up. these supposed christians can't accept their fellow humans, and expect to go to heaven for ostracizing them, when you're supposed to love everyone. sounds like the bible is twisted into bigotry. i don't even understand why people are afraid of gay people - they're not doing anyhing to directly hurt anyone else. they are adopting kids who otherwise may have been moved from foster home to foster home, instead of having two parents, regardless of gender, that love them dearly. peoples' excuses are very weak. i had a friend who was okay with lesbians, but thought that all gay men should just die because it was the most disgusting thing she'd ever heard. i was shocked. maybe that's fear in her. there's no reason to be afraid, what could they possibly do? get married, get jobs, have children, pay their taxes, be law-abiding citizens? well that's too scary for me to handle, how about you?
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#53
11-09-2004, 23:42
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__________________
"Take a Brainagra" - Rob
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#55
11-10-2004, 18:09
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__________________
"Stalin would be proud"-Winston84 First member of the Winston84 fan club Last edited by Mr. Enigma; 11-10-2004 at 22:51.
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#56
11-10-2004, 22:28
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Everyone should read Horatio's post.
I was browsing the other FHAO forums and noticed this very important post from Section 11 — it's one of the most intelligent and eloquent defenses of anti-homosexuality that I've ever read, and people from either side of the issue should pay attention to what Horatio has to say.
There are a couple of major strengths in Horatio's argument that bear noting: s/he recognizes that there are fundamental differences between men and women (who could deny it, genetically?) and that these differences have an effect, to a certain extent, on the home life of children. It also faces the important, but thoroughly politically incorrect notion of how useful something in society is. What's most striking about it is the passion Horatio displays when s/he lists everything that's wrong with society, and so many of those concerns are dear to the hearts of us all. But most of all, Horatio's post is a cautionary tale to us all: it's what happens when legitimate and noble-minded concern for society meets with a lack of understanding about biology and history. Once again, the problem boils down to choice. Is homosexuality a choice, or is it something natural? Anyone with a rudimentary understanding of evolution can understand that homosexuality clearly must have some basis in biology, because it could not have spontaneously originated in various places throughout the globe throughout history, in however repressed a fashion, if it were solely a matter of choice. Furthermore, Horatio fails to understand that genetics doesn't work on the "one gene, one trait" model — genes that influence homosexuality, especially given the fact that it's a trait that discourages reproduction, must also influence traits that society considers valuable in order for them to be conserved. Almost more tragic than Horatio's notion that gay marriage is linked with societal decay is that that societal decay, as s/he accurately and aptly characterizes it, is the sort of thing that can be 'reversed.' There is no backspace button in history, and everything that happens leaves its mark on it indelibly. The most that any group of people can do is attempt to guide society in the future towards what might be perceived as 'better' ethics. Societal problems aren't 'solvable,' but something to be worked at, something to be taken into consideration when creating policy and starting activism. Right motives are based off of a flawed premise. Failure to understand the structure and function of homosexuality is the leading cause of anti-homosexuality among thinking people such as Horatio. Horatio mistakes gay marriage as an assault upon the institution of marriage (without drawing upon religion as his/her source, which is admirable) and everything that marriage stands for by failing to understand that recognition of homosexual partnerships is an evolution in society that may serve to make the institution more robust, given the size of the divorce rate and the criminally self-indulgent negligence of so many heterosexual parents today.
__________________
If you were on a bus full of gay guys, would you get off? The homophobe's dilemma.
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#57
11-10-2004, 23:50
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this post
is as intolerant as those you damn in it. you dont want to see what they have to say, then you dont understand them, and run the risk of the ignorance you say they are filled with.
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#58
11-11-2004, 00:13
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#59
11-11-2004, 01:10
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I disagree on the basis that these symbols help in uniting gay people. It's a rallying point and a sign that "I am of this sexual orientation and I have no problem expressing that so it is ok for you to express it too. And we can get past adversity if we stick together" I also care very little about how comfortable homophobic people feel when viewing these symbols. Seeing them isn't gonna instill dislike that wasn't already present in them. I agree intelligent debate is very necessary for real progress in the issue. But in order for these intelligent debates to take place it needs to be an issue that is brought up and that people are forced to face.
__________________
"Stalin would be proud"-Winston84 First member of the Winston84 fan club
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#60
11-11-2004, 14:49
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my first follow-up!
I've read through a lot of the posts that were posted after mine and here's what I have to say about some of the new little controversies that have come up:
Regarding Homerjaysimpson's remark about how kids shouldn't have to grow up with homosexual parents...:...And no child should be brought up in a homosexual enviroment, its just not right.... I agree with kidwatchem that this is aaaaabbbsolutely ludicrous! I've had experience with kids who have grown up in a homosexual environment, in fact, I babysat for one. This little boy grew up with two mothers. At the stretch of time I was babysitting him, his parents were going through a bad seperation. Despite all this, the kid was exactly like any other kid I've ever babysat—bratty at times, cute at others, just a really normal little boy. A different experience with a child raised with homosexual parents was this: I had been friends with a girl and played soccer with her for about two years when I found out she had lesbian mothers. I was really surprised , because for some reason, I thought that if she had gay parents, there should be somehting off or starnge about her. And in fact there's not. She is one of the most popular girls in her grade, a soccer star and, as far as i can see, really well adjusted. I had some pretty closeminded assumptions concerning gay parents, which surprised me because my family has sooooo many gay and lesbian friends. Ok on a different note, here is my question to everyone: Why are there allowed to be laws which prohibit gay marraige solely on the basis that it violates "God's law", if there is seperation of church and state?? I mean, is there something I'm mising here, some loophole, or is this just yet another of our presidents bold-faced defiances of the American constitution??
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